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Author Topic: "X"  (Read 250 times)
Myky D
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"X"
« on: June 22, 2018, 06:39:46 am »

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44575229
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vladimir
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« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2018, 08:07:38 am »

Oh... I was expecting this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUiZHt6sqg4
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( ?° ?? ?°)
drippinhun
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The good old U.S. - living in a kakistocracy


« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2018, 07:08:45 pm »

Good God, what are you going to do, Myky?
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"Of all the preposterous assumptions of humanity over humanity, nothing exceeds the criticsms made on the habits of the poor by the well-housed, well-warmed, and well-fed." Herman Melville.

Trump drains swamp and installs open-air septic tank.
Myky D
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« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2018, 06:08:46 am »

Good God, what are you going to do, Myky?

Go to the Houses of Parliament in my fez to protest.
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Red Herring
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« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2018, 05:21:16 am »


I suspect it's a bad ruling in so far as the judges just didn't want the political fall out if they ruled in its favour ('it' doesn't see to be a very flattering gender neutral pronoun, but I can't think of anything else).

Seems to me that there's plenty of evidence that a small minority of people really do struggle to figure out whether they're male or female, and that there are biological reasons for this - albeit not fully understood. I don't see any problems with people identifying as such on their passport, and the Home Office argument that having just the two gender options "ensures security at national borders." is clearly bollox. Hardly anybody would use the 'X' category, and those that did would be drawing attention to themselves.

Red

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Myky D
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« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2018, 05:59:37 am »

I suspect it's a bad ruling in so far as the judges just didn't want the political fall out if they ruled in its favour ('it' doesn't see to be a very flattering gender neutral pronoun, but I can't think of anything else).

Seems to me that there's plenty of evidence that a small minority of people really do struggle to figure out whether they're male or female, and that there are biological reasons for this - albeit not fully understood. I don't see any problems with people identifying as such on their passport, and the Home Office argument that having just the two gender options "ensures security at national borders." is clearly bollox. Hardly anybody would use the 'X' category, and those that did would be drawing attention to themselves.

Red



I don't have a problem if it doesn't cost me money. It's now starting to cost me money, and gender is pretty damned easy to define - it's what resides in one's pants.

If you want to cut it off and invert it then that's fine too (as long as you pay for the op), and then you can tick the other box on the forms.

It really is a very First World Problem.
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Red Herring
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« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2018, 06:10:02 am »

I don't have a problem if it doesn't cost me money.

Printing an 'X' instead of an 'M' or an 'F' won't break the bank.

Red
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Myky D
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« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2018, 08:08:33 am »

Printing an 'X' instead of an 'M' or an 'F' won't break the bank.

Red

That's not the point. The tax payer shouldn't have to indulge it at all.
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Dutch Rosie
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« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2018, 01:00:07 pm »

Why not, Myky? Hermaphrodites were frequently given the wrong gender by doctors who considered only the wishes of the parents and cut off bits to suit their wishes.. Many are now confused or distressed by the gender they have been given and I am happy to support anything that would make them feel happier. As for gender being "easy to define" by the contents of one's pants or a chromosome test, that is of course no longer the case, since even males who have become women more often than not refuse penile amputation these days.
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Myky D
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« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2018, 02:18:29 pm »

Why not, Myky? Hermaphrodites were frequently given the wrong gender by doctors who considered only the wishes of the parents and cut off bits to suit their wishes.. Many are now confused or distressed by the gender they have been given and I am happy to support anything that would make them feel happier. As for gender being "easy to define" by the contents of one's pants or a chromosome test, that is of course no longer the case, since even males who have become women more often than not refuse penile amputation these days.

Xx = female xy = male
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Dutch Rosie
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« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2018, 01:40:47 am »

Xx = female xy = male

"Encountered karyotypes include 47XXY, 46XX/46XY, or 46XX/47XXY or XX & XY with SRY Mutations, Mixed Chromosomal abnormalities or hormone deficiency/excess disorders, and various degrees of mosaicism of these and a variety of others. The 3 Primary Karyotypes for True Hermaphroditism are XX with genetic defects (55-70% of cases), XX/XY (20-30% of cases) & XY (5-15% of cases) with the remainder being a variety of other Chromosomal abnormalities and Mosaicisms."
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Dutch Rosie
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« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2018, 01:41:59 am »

Printing an 'X' instead of an 'M' or an 'F' won't break the bank.

Red

Quite.
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Myky D
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« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2018, 02:05:18 am »

"Encountered karyotypes include 47XXY, 46XX/46XY, or 46XX/47XXY or XX & XY with SRY Mutations, Mixed Chromosomal abnormalities or hormone deficiency/excess disorders, and various degrees of mosaicism of these and a variety of others. The 3 Primary Karyotypes for True Hermaphroditism are XX with genetic defects (55-70% of cases), XX/XY (20-30% of cases) & XY (5-15% of cases) with the remainder being a variety of other Chromosomal abnormalities and Mosaicisms."

Yes and how many such people exist?
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Red Herring
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« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2018, 04:27:39 am »

Yes and how many such people exist?

In the UK -  131,296.

https://www.quora.com/How-many-trans-people-are-in-the-U-K

Red
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Dutch Rosie
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« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2018, 04:55:25 am »

Yes and how many such people exist?

Why does that matter? A genetic disorder is a genetic disorder, however small the number may be. My partner has a PXE gene and there are only some 300 patients in the whole country with this disorder.  Most GPs have never even heard of it. But he has every right to the help he is given as a disabled person.
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ymrader
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« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2018, 05:13:27 am »

Why does that matter? A genetic disorder is a genetic disorder, however small the number may be. My partner has a PXE gene and there are only some 300 patients in the whole country with this disorder.  Most GPs have never even heard of it. But he has every right to the help he is given as a disabled person.

Myky fears change  Wink
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Alte Dame, Alte Dame
Hertha BSC, so schön ist dein Name!
Die Farben Blau-Weiß,
die Trikots gestreift,
im Herzen weht nur eins:
Unsere Fahne!
Myky D
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« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2018, 05:23:35 am »

Why does that matter? A genetic disorder is a genetic disorder, however small the number may be. My partner has a PXE gene and there are only some 300 patients in the whole country with this disorder.  Most GPs have never even heard of it. But he has every right to the help he is given as a disabled person.

Help, yes. This isn't about help - it's about passports.
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Myky D
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« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2018, 05:25:37 am »


0.2%

So why should the passport be changed? What's the percentage of amputees? Asthma sufferers? People who like New Model Army? Should they have special representation on passports too? Their own box to tick?
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Myky D
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« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2018, 05:29:06 am »

Myky fears change  Wink

No - I just resent having to pay unnecessary,  unjustifiable costs.
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Dutch Rosie
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« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2018, 06:14:33 am »

0.2%

So why should the passport be changed? What's the percentage of amputees? Asthma sufferers? People who like New Model Army? Should they have special representation on passports too? Their own box to tick?

This is a really dopey post, Myky.
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Red Herring
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« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2018, 06:22:38 am »

0.2%

So why should the passport be changed? What's the percentage of amputees? Asthma sufferers? People who like New Model Army? Should they have special representation on passports too? Their own box to tick?

The Amputee Coalition of America estimates that there are 2 million American amputees, the US population is about five times that of the UK, so rough guess - 400,000.

Asthma - 5.4 million people in the UK currently receive treatment for asthma.

New Model Army fans - too many.

None of the above need representation on a passport because a passport doesn't ask how many limbs you have, what medical conditions you suffer, or what bands you like. If a passport did ask those things then naturally they should all be included in a list of possible answers.

A passport does ask what gender you are, if neither 'M' or 'F' serve to describe your gender then obviously an option should be available that does.

Red
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Myky D
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« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2018, 06:32:44 am »

This is a really dopey post, Myky.

Good point, well-presented - my argument is in tatters.
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Myky D
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« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2018, 06:38:27 am »

The Amputee Coalition of America estimates that there are 2 million American amputees, the US population is about five times that of the UK, so rough guess - 400,000.

Asthma - 5.4 million people in the UK currently receive treatment for asthma.

New Model Army fans - too many.

None of the above need representation on a passport because a passport doesn't ask how many limbs you have, what medical conditions you suffer, or what bands you like. If a passport did ask those things then naturally they should all be included in a list of possible answers.

A passport does ask what gender you are, if neither 'M' or 'F' serve to describe your gender then obviously an option should be available that does.

Red

I disagree - this is about self-identity, not gender. Just because you believe you're a woman trapped in a man's body doesn't mean you should be catered to. If you're a hermaphrodite - pick a team. The whole structure shouldn't be changed just because you feel uncomfortable with the gender society agrees you have.
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ymrader
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« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2018, 06:52:46 am »

I disagree - this is about self-identity, not gender. Just because you believe you're a woman trapped in a man's body doesn't mean you should be catered to. If you're a hermaphrodite - pick a team. The whole structure shouldn't be changed just because you feel uncomfortable with the gender society agrees you have.

Same with the gayers I say
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Alte Dame, Alte Dame
Hertha BSC, so schön ist dein Name!
Die Farben Blau-Weiß,
die Trikots gestreift,
im Herzen weht nur eins:
Unsere Fahne!
Dutch Rosie
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« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2018, 06:55:38 am »

I disagree - this is about self-identity, not gender. Just because you believe you're a woman trapped in a man's body doesn't mean you should be catered to. If you're a hermaphrodite - pick a team. The whole structure shouldn't be changed just because you feel uncomfortable with the gender society agrees you have.

Why should they? Why can't hermaphrodites just be what they are (if the choice hasn't already been made for them by their parents and doctors)
And what "whole structure" should be changed? One added option on a passport application is all they are asking for.
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