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Author Topic: Tearing families apart/breaking the law  (Read 448 times)
vladimir
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« Reply #50 on: June 20, 2018, 08:55:07 am »

Oh, by the way... I checked for an updated number.  I believe it's now up to 3,000 children that can not be accounted for.
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Myky D
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« Reply #51 on: June 20, 2018, 09:38:42 am »

Yes - the story is gaining traction over here ...
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Myky D
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« Reply #52 on: June 20, 2018, 10:03:23 am »

Womp, womp.
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Myky D
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« Reply #53 on: June 20, 2018, 10:44:21 am »

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Quelor
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« Reply #54 on: June 20, 2018, 10:55:06 am »

If someone turns up at the border claiming asylum they are not "illegal immigrants" and should not be treated as such - at least not until their claim proves false and they are told to go. 

And that's thing thing, under this policy, anyone coming in through a non-official point of entry is now charged with a crime and the children taken away, only for them to have to then try and go through an asylum process (while the children are still designated  "unaccompanied minors" as turned over to that process). 
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Quelor
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« Reply #55 on: June 20, 2018, 10:56:53 am »

Yes - the story is gaining traction over here ...

Growing traction among the Republicans to try and stop it, too, and Republican Governors are rescinding National Guard and other resources from the border until it's fixed.  Even if one somehow distanced themselves from the morality, any political hack should understand how terrible the optics are.   
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Red Herring
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« Reply #56 on: June 20, 2018, 11:12:54 am »

So here's what I understand, which might not be fully correct or accurate.  I won't pretend to know more than what I've read about over the past month or so.

- Back in '08, the Bush admin signed a law to protect unaccompanied minors that crossed the border from being immediately deported, and instead to be transferred to the care of the Department of Human Health and Services before being transferred to a "sponsor" in the country.  
- The Obama admin maintained this law without change
- The Trump administration is now taking families, charging the adults as criminals, taking their children away, and are treating the children as "unaccompanied minors."
- Prior policy was to keep the family together while they awaited deportation
- Despite what Trump says, Kelly and Sessions have explicitly admitted to the new policy as a way to deter immigration
- This has created a sudden increase in "unaccompanied minors" that is straining the system and there is now little oversight into what happens with these children, with the federal agency responsible admitting it has "lost" thousands of children and admitted some have ended up with human traffickers.

I'm not sure yet if it's hyperbole to say it's the most outright evil policy of my government in my lifetime.  
-

Hi Quelor,

I'm afraid it's horribly typical of the kind of negligence, inhumanity and general lack of imagination that infects all policy aimed at controlling migration.

As is usual with these kind of stories hit the headlines a bit of me just shrugs and says 'welcome to my world'. For me this latest piece of nastiness from the Trump administration is just a variation on a theme. The UK has often used immigration detention in this kind of way.

True story. Back in 1998 I saw a lady from Lithuania who had arrived with her two young children. She was frantic with worry because she said the police had 'taken' her husband and she had no idea where he was. As far as she was concerned some man in uniform had basically abducted him. This was the days before mobile phones and the internet so she was besides herself with worry. I called up immigration, and after being passed round a bit established that he had been detained, and had to explain this to her. Needless to say she went mental - eventually I managed to get through to the husband who was being detained at HMP Rochester - an old victorian category B high security prison being used for immigration detention where the detainees were locked in their cells. Not even charged with a crime, never mind convicted - just detained for administrative convenience. She talked to him, so at least she knew he was alive (I think she was beginning to wonder).

Red

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Myky D
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« Reply #57 on: June 20, 2018, 01:43:11 pm »

"Really, really pathetically weak"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44552852
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Myky D
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« Reply #58 on: June 22, 2018, 03:51:08 am »

I really don't care ... do u?
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Myky D
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« Reply #59 on: June 23, 2018, 03:10:21 am »

A brief history of "I don't care":

https://overland.org.au/2018/06/a-brief-fascist-history-of-i-dont-care/
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ben wedge
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« Reply #60 on: July 01, 2018, 04:03:32 pm »

Myky, how do you feel about the children damaged over the past hundreds of years by being separated from their parents when they went to jail?

It is the same thing.

Exactly!!

It is not possible to 'punish' an individual without it affecting others...even a fine or Community Service Order affects not just the offender
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Lone Ranger
Myky D
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« Reply #61 on: July 02, 2018, 07:48:23 am »

Exactly!!

It is not possible to 'punish' an individual without it affecting others...even a fine or Community Service Order affects not just the offender

Do go on, Ben. Please reference the children kept in cages in your answer.
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Dutch Rosie
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« Reply #62 on: July 02, 2018, 10:22:25 am »

Do go on, Ben. Please reference the children kept in cages in your answer.

You might have done the same in your opening and subsequent posts. Roll Eyes
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ben wedge
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« Reply #63 on: July 02, 2018, 01:55:42 pm »

Do go on, Ben. Please reference the children kept in cages in your answer.

Irrelevant to what I said - a stand alone statement that ANY punishment of an offender has repercussions on others

Do you agree with that statement?

If so, then there is no argument

If not, then explain your reasoning
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Lone Ranger
Dutch Rosie
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« Reply #64 on: July 02, 2018, 03:24:59 pm »

Irrelevant to what I said - a stand alone statement that ANY punishment of an offender has repercussions on others

Do you agree with that statement?

If so, then there is no argument

If not, then explain your reasoning

You won't get an answer Ben, I tried and failed.
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vladimir
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« Reply #65 on: July 02, 2018, 03:55:15 pm »

Irrelevant to what I said - a stand alone statement that ANY punishment of an offender has repercussions on others

Do you agree with that statement?

If so, then there is no argument

If not, then explain your reasoning

Here's the thing. IF I go to jail, my kids and I will be separated, but when I get out I'll know where to find them.

There's no system in place for tracking the whereabouts of these children.  Once whatever situation is resolved there's a strong possibility of these people never seeing their children again.

Here's the other thing... some of these people aren't actually breaking any laws.  They're simply seeking asylum.  Through legitimate and legal channels.
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ben wedge
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« Reply #66 on: July 02, 2018, 04:16:06 pm »

Here's the thing. IF I go to jail, my kids and I will be separated, but when I get out I'll know where to find them.

There's no system in place for tracking the whereabouts of these children.  Once whatever situation is resolved there's a strong possibility of these people never seeing their children again.

Here's the other thing... some of these people aren't actually breaking any laws.  They're simply seeking asylum.  Through legitimate and legal channels.

Again, that doesn't alter what I said. indeed, it reinforces it - it does not affect only the person subjected to the sentence, it affects others

I am not conversant with the mechanics of the system being operated, but surely there is a record of where these detainees go when they are released?

I find it hard to believe that they are arbitrarily split up and then released in different places at different times with no information as to where their families are??? Seriously, you are suggesting that these children are just kicked out on their own?

If so, then that is indeed unnacceptable

Migration is indeed a problem, but by no means a new one. The US was one of a number of countries which initially welcomed immigrants, but then initiated quotas and coonditions (almost 100 years ago in the case of the US)

Considering the economy and the size of the country, the US has less reason to limit immigration than , for example Malta. With a population of around 350.000 and very limited in area, they have valid concerns of being overrun and outnumbered

Unless you are advocating unrestricted immigration, then there has to be some filter system...and unfortunately there are going to be a lot of applicants who have to be refused....and each one is likely to be a heart rending tragedy

All we can do is try to do what we can as fairly as we can - I would be surprised if the US is not doing that
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Lone Ranger
Dutch Rosie
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« Reply #67 on: July 03, 2018, 02:47:07 am »

So what then is the American system regarding children in care? In Europe such children become wards of the court or are wards of a social worker assigned to the case. The ward has to keep track of the children and to be consulted if the child is to leave the country or change address.
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