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Author Topic: Tearing families apart/breaking the law  (Read 450 times)
Dutch Rosie
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« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2018, 01:55:23 pm »

Ah, Vlad, so that is what this thread is all about.

Sounds appalling, if children are taken into care by the state then they should be looked after properly.
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vanceen
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« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2018, 05:59:38 pm »

Ah, Vlad, so that is what this thread is all about.

Sounds appalling, if children are taken into care by the state then they should be looked after properly.

Hi Rosie.

The policy used to be to send the families back instead of sending the adults to prison to await trial and the children to state facilities.

I've read that the policy is for the children's carers never to hold them (even two year olds to four year olds), for fear of abuse accusations. I think that's horribly cruel. You are right, if they have to be taken into care they should be looked after with love and given what a small child needs.

I don't want my country doing this.
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Dutch Rosie
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« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2018, 03:20:41 am »

Hi Rosie.

The policy used to be to send the families back instead of sending the adults to prison to await trial and the children to state facilities.

I've read that the policy is for the children's carers never to hold them (even two year olds to four year olds), for fear of abuse accusations. I think that's horribly cruel. You are right, if they have to be taken into care they should be looked after with love and given what a small child needs.

I don't want my country doing this.

Oh my god, that brings back memories: I once took a teaching job at an international school, run by British staff. I had, next to normal teaching, the task of giving single English lessons to a little African girl who had just arrived with her father (her mother had died). One day her father kicked her in the head for contradicting him, and she ended up in hospital with a serious concussion.  The day she came back to school, I was on "guard duty"in the entrance hall, and she took a running jump and ended up in my arms. I gave her the cuddle she obviously needed, and was then summoned to attend a disciplinary meeting, where I was severely lectured on "inappropriate physical contact with a pupil." I went home and cried all day, and resigned a week later. Those British buggers could not understand that what I did was very appropriate.
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Myky D
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« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2018, 04:15:36 am »

I don't think being British has anything to do with it.

I worked in an inner-city East Landan school for a year recently. No way would I like to be a teacher - they get it from both sides, with both barrels, all the time.

Duck fat.
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Dutch Rosie
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« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2018, 04:54:51 am »

I don't think being British has anything to do with it.

I worked in an inner-city East Landan school for a year recently. No way would I like to be a teacher - they get it from both sides, with both barrels, all the time.

Duck fat.

Thiink what you like, Myky, but in my experience, when the Brits finally give in that something is wrong or is politically incorrect, they go overboard on it.

I did not modify my behaviour towards pupils after this incident, and was never again disciplined in any Dutch school I worked at. If a kid needs a cuddle, then he/she should get a cuddle. End of, as far as I'm concerned.
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Myky D
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« Reply #30 on: June 19, 2018, 05:35:09 am »

Ok, Rosie, but bringing in xenophobic generalisations doesn't really help the discussion.

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Dutch Rosie
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« Reply #31 on: June 19, 2018, 06:30:23 am »

Ok, Rosie, but bringing in xenophobic generalisations doesn't really help the discussion.



Neither does nitpicking.
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Myky D
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« Reply #32 on: June 19, 2018, 06:52:25 am »

Neither does nitpicking.

I'm sorry but challenging xenophobia is not 'nitpicking' in my view.
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Dutch Rosie
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« Reply #33 on: June 19, 2018, 07:24:13 am »

I'm sorry but challenging xenophobia is not 'nitpicking' in my view.

It is if you don't really know what xenophobia means, which you don't. Now stop wrecking your own thread and try to post something relevant, like your own opinion.
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Myky D
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« Reply #34 on: June 19, 2018, 07:30:36 am »

It is if you don't really know what xenophobia means, which you don't. Now stop wrecking your own thread and try to post something relevant, like your own opinion.

Rosie, you made a generalisation about people based on their nationality - that's xenophobia. Own it.

The thread is pretty well done - the Shermans on here have said how horrid it is and they don't eant it in their names. You initially deemed it ok because their parents sinned, but then backtracked when you found out the detail of it.

I'm with the Shermans - I think it's pretty horrible - but Yurp int much better.
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Dutch Rosie
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« Reply #35 on: June 19, 2018, 07:59:35 am »

No, Myky, you are wrong. Xenophobia means a hatred or fear of other nationalities. Be careful you fully understand new words as you learn them.

I neither fear nor hate the Brits, so nothing I said was xenophobic.
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Myky D
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« Reply #36 on: June 19, 2018, 09:32:22 am »

xenophobia
z?n??f??b??/Submit
noun
dislike of or prejudice against people from other countries.

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Quelor
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« Reply #37 on: June 19, 2018, 09:46:05 am »

So here's what I understand, which might not be fully correct or accurate.  I won't pretend to know more than what I've read about over the past month or so.

- Back in '08, the Bush admin signed a law to protect unaccompanied minors that crossed the border from being immediately deported, and instead to be transferred to the care of the Department of Human Health and Services before being transferred to a "sponsor" in the country.  
- The Obama admin maintained this law without change
- The Trump administration is now taking families, charging the adults as criminals, taking their children away, and are treating the children as "unaccompanied minors."
- Prior policy was to keep the family together while they awaited deportation
- Despite what Trump says, Kelly and Sessions have explicitly admitted to the new policy as a way to deter immigration
- This has created a sudden increase in "unaccompanied minors" that is straining the system and there is now little oversight into what happens with these children, with the federal agency responsible admitting it has "lost" thousands of children and admitted some have ended up with human traffickers.

I'm not sure yet if it's hyperbole to say it's the most outright evil policy of my government in my lifetime.  
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« Last Edit: June 19, 2018, 10:25:52 am by Quelor » Logged

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Dutch Rosie
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« Reply #38 on: June 19, 2018, 09:52:23 am »

xenophobia
z?n??f??b??/Submit
noun
dislike of or prejudice against people from other countries.



Where did you find that? How To Bluff Your Way Through Hard Words?  Grin

Try a few decent dictionaries (it is actually word of the year to one American dictionary):

Originally the word xenophobia comes from the Greek words xénos, meaning 'the stranger' and 'the guest' and phóbos, meaning 'fear'. Thus, xenophobia stands for 'fear of the stranger', but usually the term is taken to mean 'hatred of strangers'1.

Xenophobia definition, fear or hatred of foreigners, people from different cultures, or strangers:

fear and hatred of strangers or foreigners or of anything that is strange or foreign
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Myky D
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« Reply #39 on: June 19, 2018, 10:02:50 am »

Take it on the chin.
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Dutch Rosie
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« Reply #40 on: June 19, 2018, 10:12:37 am »

Take it on the chin.

A pugilistic schoolboy. Charming.
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Myky D
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« Reply #41 on: June 19, 2018, 10:32:30 am »

A pugilistic schoolboy. Charming.

The sport of debate is a noble one, and of course pugilistic - metaphor grapples with simile, word wrestles word, nuance trips meaning with tacit implications, as rhetoric and theatricality trade blows.

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Dutch Rosie
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« Reply #42 on: June 19, 2018, 10:37:54 am »

So here's what I understand, which might not be fully correct or accurate.  I won't pretend to know more than what I've read about over the past month or so.

- Back in '08, the Bush admin signed a law to protect unaccompanied minors that crossed the border from being immediately deported, and instead to be transferred to the care of the Department of Human Health and Services before being transferred to a "sponsor" in the country.  
- The Obama admin maintained this law without change
- The Trump administration is now taking families, charging the adults as criminals, taking their children away, and are treating the children as "unaccompanied minors."
- Prior policy was to keep the family together while they awaited deportation
- Despite what Trump says, Kelly and Sessions have explicitly admitted to the new policy as a way to deter immigration
- This has created a sudden increase in "unaccompanied minors" that is straining the system and there is now little oversight into what happens with these children, with the federal agency responsible admitting it has "lost" thousands of children and admitted some have ended up with human traffickers.

I'm not sure yet if it's hyperbole to say it's the most outright evil policy of my government in my lifetime.  
-

I hope this is not all true, Q. How ghastly, how the hell can they have just lost children?

And what about this "sponsorship" ? It reminds me of the crimes carried out by the Australian government, when they stole Aboriginal children from their parents and had them adopted by whites, so they would grow up "well adjusted and civilized." This went on till the 1970s.
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vladimir
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« Reply #43 on: June 19, 2018, 10:49:38 am »

I hope this is not all true, Q. How ghastly, how the hell can they have just lost children?


It is absolutely true.  That's why even a few Republicans are against it.  The lost children currently number 1,475.  Technically simply 'unaccounted for.'
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Quelor
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« Reply #44 on: June 19, 2018, 10:58:44 am »

I hope this is not all true, Q. How ghastly, how the hell can they have just lost children?

And what about this "sponsorship" ? It reminds me of the crimes carried out by the Australian government, when they stole Aboriginal children from their parents and had them adopted by whites, so they would grow up "well adjusted and civilized." This went on till the 1970s.

The one thing I can say is that I don't think "sponsors" = white people.  I think they try and find parents, aunts/uncles, etc., and just go on down the list of possible relatives.  They lose them because they felt that, once placed, they did their job per the law, and had no responsibility to follow up. 

This article explains it a bit better than I can, and mind you, this is from April,  right at the start of the new policy which has added many more children.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/26/us/politics/migrant-children-missing.html
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Quelor
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« Reply #45 on: June 19, 2018, 11:01:51 am »

The lost children currently number 1,475.  Technically simply 'unaccounted for.'

And that's the number given in April, which is the month Sessions announced the new policy.  So basically that's who they lost BEFORE they drastically increased numbers and further strained the system. 
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Dutch Rosie
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« Reply #46 on: June 19, 2018, 11:08:04 am »

Oh my god, this is horrific. The country must be up in arms, surely?
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vladimir
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« Reply #47 on: June 19, 2018, 11:19:41 am »

Oh my god, this is horrific. The country must be up in arms, surely?

It is.  The thing is, Trump and his support base are predominantly racist.  They are 100% fine with this.  If these children didn't want to suffer, they would have had different parents I think is the logic.
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ymrader
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« Reply #48 on: June 20, 2018, 12:59:06 am »

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/19/us/politics/trump-israel-palestinians-human-rights.html

Mmmmmmmmm Roll Eyes
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What Larks
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« Reply #49 on: June 20, 2018, 02:59:14 am »

If someone turns up at the border claiming asylum they are not "illegal immigrants" and should not be treated as such - at least not until their claim proves false and they are told to go. 
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