The Great World Debate
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
July 16, 2018, 11:32:27 am

Login with username, password and session length
Search:     Advanced search
R.I.P Nick. OLF died 13 October 2016.
119302 Posts in 5709 Topics by 86 Members
Latest Member: Dutch Rosie
* Home Help Login Register
+  The Great World Debate
|-+  The Chamber
| |-+  The Comfy Chair of Conversation
| | |-+  Tearing families apart/breaking the law
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 3 Print
Author Topic: Tearing families apart/breaking the law  (Read 447 times)
Myky D
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 18303


« on: June 16, 2018, 03:58:47 am »

So the kids of families trying to get into America illegally are being separated from their parents.

The US authorities say that in order to avoid this happening they shouldn't cross the border illegally.

Fair? Just? Morally acceptable?
Logged
Dutch Rosie
Full Member
***
Posts: 251


« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2018, 06:05:51 am »

Do you mean that the parents are arrested and imprisoned, so the kids have to be put into care?

What else would you suggest?
Logged
drippinhun
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 13282


The good old U.S. - living in a kakistocracy


« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2018, 06:30:42 am »

Taking a child from a parent who is trying to escape potential death for both is as low as an authority can go. If a government can justify this, they can justify anything. We've seen these kind of actions before and they result in horrific ruin. The people need to rise up against this immoral action.
Logged

"Of all the preposterous assumptions of humanity over humanity, nothing exceeds the criticsms made on the habits of the poor by the well-housed, well-warmed, and well-fed." Herman Melville.

Trump drains swamp and installs open-air septic tank.
Myky D
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 18303


« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2018, 08:23:25 am »

Do you mean that the parents are arrested and imprisoned, so the kids have to be put into care?

What else would you suggest?

I don't know - hence offering it up for debate.
Logged
Myky D
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 18303


« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2018, 08:23:58 am »

Taking a child from a parent who is trying to escape potential death for both is as low as an authority can go. If a government can justify this, they can justify anything. We've seen these kind of actions before and they result in horrific ruin. The people need to rise up against this immoral action.

Would you agree that the parents bring this on the children, through trying to cross illegally?
Logged
Dutch Rosie
Full Member
***
Posts: 251


« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2018, 09:05:39 am »

Would you agree that the parents bring this on the children, through trying to cross illegally?

Yes, of course.
Logged
Dutch Rosie
Full Member
***
Posts: 251


« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2018, 09:08:02 am »

Taking a child from a parent who is trying to escape potential death for both is as low as an authority can go. If a government can justify this, they can justify anything. We've seen these kind of actions before and they result in horrific ruin. The people need to rise up against this immoral action.

If we are discussing what is being done in the USA today, then it is economic refugees, not political. They have the option of staying where they belong, or of trying to emigrate legally.
Logged
drippinhun
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 13282


The good old U.S. - living in a kakistocracy


« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2018, 01:14:36 pm »

If we are discussing what is being done in the USA today, then it is economic refugees, not political. They have the option of staying where they belong, or of trying to emigrate legally.

In most cases they are in danger of dying at the hands of an abusive husband or ruthless gangs.
Logged

"Of all the preposterous assumptions of humanity over humanity, nothing exceeds the criticsms made on the habits of the poor by the well-housed, well-warmed, and well-fed." Herman Melville.

Trump drains swamp and installs open-air septic tank.
drippinhun
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 13282


The good old U.S. - living in a kakistocracy


« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2018, 01:17:10 pm »

Would you agree that the parents bring this on the children, through trying to cross illegally?

A parent would be negligent not to try and get into the US, or somewhere else that is relatively safe (minus the Trump administration's mechanizations).
Logged

"Of all the preposterous assumptions of humanity over humanity, nothing exceeds the criticsms made on the habits of the poor by the well-housed, well-warmed, and well-fed." Herman Melville.

Trump drains swamp and installs open-air septic tank.
Dutch Rosie
Full Member
***
Posts: 251


« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2018, 03:11:56 am »

In most cases they are in danger of dying at the hands of an abusive husband or ruthless gangs.

There are enough of those in the country they are trying to enter illegally.

If you break the law, you know what the consequences can be. Our prisons are full of criminals who have lost their children (albeit usually temporarily), but nobody is screaming about immoral decisions.
Logged
Myky D
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 18303


« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2018, 04:04:42 am »

Yes, of course.

Ok - so if you knowingly break the law, you deserve everything you get, including harm done to imminent parties that know you, in order to punish you?

The sins of the fathers visited upon their sons.

Biblical; brutal but righteous.

Something about leaving the whole world blind.
Logged
Myky D
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 18303


« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2018, 04:06:27 am »

A parent would be negligent not to try and get into the US, or somewhere else that is relatively safe (minus the Trump administration's mechanizations).

Sure.

Would you agree that the parents bring this on the children, through trying to cross illegally?
Logged
Dutch Rosie
Full Member
***
Posts: 251


« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2018, 04:41:40 am »

Ok - so if you knowingly break the law, you deserve everything you get, including harm done to imminent parties that know you, in order to punish you?

The sins of the fathers visited upon their sons.

Biblical; brutal but righteous.

Something about leaving the whole world blind.

If you break the law, you know what the consequences can be. Our prisons are full of criminals who have lost their children (albeit usually temporarily), but nobody is screaming about immoral decisions.

What alternatives do you suggest? Not putting the parents in jail, or putting little children in jail with them?
Logged
Dutch Rosie
Full Member
***
Posts: 251


« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2018, 01:02:23 pm »

"Ok - so if you knowingly break the law, you deserve everything you get, including harm done to imminent parties that know you, in order to punish you?"

Talk about putting words into the mouths of others!

It is of course not the intention of the authorities to punish children because of their associations with criminals nor to do so with the intention of punishing the criminals themselves. It is merely a consequence of parents breaking the law.
Logged
ymrader
Administrator
Hero Member
******
Posts: 55506



« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2018, 04:01:16 pm »

"Ok - so if you knowingly break the law, you deserve everything you get, including harm done to imminent parties that know you, in order to punish you?"

Talk about putting words into the mouths of others!

It is of course not the intention of the authorities to punish children because of their associations with criminals nor to do so with the intention of punishing the criminals themselves. It is merely a consequence of parents breaking the law.

Bit harsh.

Poor buggers want a better life. The EU has its own trouble. Fortunately most of them drown in the med.
Logged

Alte Dame, Alte Dame
Hertha BSC, so schön ist dein Name!
Die Farben Blau-Weiß,
die Trikots gestreift,
im Herzen weht nur eins:
Unsere Fahne!
Myky D
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 18303


« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2018, 01:49:17 am »

"Ok - so if you knowingly break the law, you deserve everything you get, including harm done to imminent parties that know you, in order to punish you?"

Talk about putting words into the mouths of others!

It is of course not the intention of the authorities to punish children because of their associations with criminals nor to do so with the intention of punishing the criminals themselves. It is merely a consequence of parents breaking the law.

Incorrect. Intention does not enter into it. The authorities are professional bodies. The process myst be fully thought-out abd without error.
Logged
Dutch Rosie
Full Member
***
Posts: 251


« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2018, 02:18:58 am »

Incorrect. Intention does not enter into it. The authorities are professional bodies. The process myst be fully thought-out abd without error.

Then why did  you bring intention into it in your post:

"Ok - so if you knowingly break the law, you deserve everything you get, including harm done to imminent parties that know you, in order to punish you?"
Logged
Dutch Rosie
Full Member
***
Posts: 251


« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2018, 02:23:45 am »

Bit harsh.

Poor buggers want a better life. The EU has its own trouble. Fortunately most of them drown in the med.

Yes, the law is harsh on family members, who always suffer for the crimes of their relatives.

I know the poor buggers just want a better life, but illegal immigration is not the answer. My Gambian friend's son ran away to Libya with a friend, thinking he could easily cross to Europe. His friend was murdered and he narrowly escaped the same fate.
Logged
What Larks
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3092



« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2018, 02:36:29 am »

In most cases they are in danger of dying at the hands of an abusive husband or ruthless gangs.

Would they be able to apply for asylum under those circumstances? The argument might be that their home country should protect them, but if it doesn't or can't, are they eligible?
Logged

If you want to know what God thinks of money, just look at the people he gave it to.”
― Dorothy Parker
Dutch Rosie
Full Member
***
Posts: 251


« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2018, 04:45:44 am »

Would they be able to apply for asylum under those circumstances? The argument might be that their home country should protect them, but if it doesn't or can't, are they eligible?

It depends: they would have to prove that they could not relocate or solve their problems in another way than illegal emigration., etc. It has been the same for women claiming they would be forced to undergo FGM, each case is looked at closely.
Logged
Myky D
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 18303


« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2018, 10:25:34 am »

Then why did  you bring intention into it in your post:

"Ok - so if you knowingly break the law, you deserve everything you get, including harm done to imminent parties that know you, in order to punish you?"

The purpose of the ruling is to punish. It should not have unintended results, as it should be surgical, having been debated and agreed by the country's finest minds.

Do you think it is acceptable to make the children 'collateral damage' in punishing the parents?
Logged
vladimir
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3270



« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2018, 11:23:50 am »

It's just sad.  I've never had much faith in humanity.  The average person is just such an ugly monster.  Now this... I see people who I have to refer to as 'countrymen' practically giddy at the amount of human suffering they get to contribute to the world now.

"Oh well!  It's laws!  Those children suffering deserve to suffer because we declared laws!"

I am disgusted to my core.
Logged

( ?° ?? ?°)
Rasta
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 7566



« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2018, 11:48:37 am »

A parent would be negligent not to try and get into the US, or somewhere else that is relatively safe (minus the Trump administration's mechanizations).

I surprised by this, Drip.

I had always thought that you weren't supportive of immigration to the US - we're full and running out of water, etc.
Logged

You gotta pay the troll toll if you wanna get into that boy's soul
Dutch Rosie
Full Member
***
Posts: 251


« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2018, 11:52:43 am »

Myky, how do you feel about the children damaged over the past hundreds of years by being separated from their parents when they went to jail?

It is the same thing.
Logged
vladimir
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3270



« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2018, 12:20:11 pm »

Myky, how do you feel about the children damaged over the past hundreds of years by being separated from their parents when they went to jail?

It is the same thing.

It's not even close to the same thing.  Those children wind up with relatives or foster parents.  Not in a tent in the desert without a clue as to what the future holds for them.
Logged

( ?° ?? ?°)
Pages: [1] 2 3 Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.096 seconds with 19 queries.