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Author Topic: US Gun Control  (Read 487 times)
Staffordshire Knot
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« on: March 14, 2018, 03:15:15 am »

What will it actually take for the US to get a grip and solve its epidemic of mass shootings and actually seriously limit who can access and what type of firearm they can access.

I'm not anti gun in anyway but civilians having access to automatic firearms and military weaponry. Seriously?

This has got to stop.
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Dutch Rosie
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« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2018, 04:50:55 am »

It will take the majority of American citizens to insist on action, and I don't think that is going to happen any time soon, when "freedom to bear arms" is set in stone.
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ymrader
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« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2018, 05:49:36 am »

Let them have as many as they like.

Just control the ammunition  Grin
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Staffordshire Knot
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« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2018, 06:10:07 am »

It will take the majority of American citizens to insist on action, and I don't think that is going to happen any time soon, when "freedom to bear arms" is set in stone.

Is it set in Stone though?
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Dutch Rosie
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« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2018, 06:38:32 am »

Is it set in Stone though?

Yeah, pretty much: second amendment, 1789.
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ymrader
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« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2018, 07:18:20 am »

I am seriously considering getting a gun.

Looking at joining the local gun club. If you get a hunting licence you can get all sorts of shit but I am not interested in killing owt.

A nice little 9mm will do.
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vladimir
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« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2018, 09:47:48 am »

Yeah, pretty much: second amendment, 1789.

That's just it... the Second Amendment says American's have the right to bear arms in a well trained and organized militia.  That in itself was because it was ratified at a time when America had no significant standing army.

The 'well trained and organized militia' part is kind of ignored now but that's the only thing that is actually set in stone.  The Second Amendment applying to anyone and everyone is actually a specific interpretation and so... kind of dependent on who you're talking to.
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Dutch Rosie
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« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2018, 09:54:25 am »

That may or may not be, Vlad, but I'm not getting into any arguments about the American constitution, they do a good enough job of that themselves.

The point is, people regard it a right, ordained by God and the state, and they will not let it go lightly.
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Weyland
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« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2018, 10:10:00 am »

That's just it... the Second Amendment says American's have the right to bear arms in a well trained and organized militia.  That in itself was because it was ratified at a time when America had no significant standing army.

The 'well trained and organized militia' part is kind of ignored now but that's the only thing that is actually set in stone.  The Second Amendment applying to anyone and everyone is actually a specific interpretation and so... kind of dependent on who you're talking to.

It's an Amendment. Which implies that later Amendments could Amend it.

Has that ever happened, Vlad?

Are Amendments really set in stone?
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vladimir
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« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2018, 10:42:07 am »

It's an Amendment. Which implies that later Amendments could Amend it.

Has that ever happened, Vlad?

Are Amendments really set in stone?

Off the top of my head, the 21st amendment... that was a big one.  Made alcohol illegal.  Pretty much built organized crime in America.  Took a while (and a whole lot of people dying) but eventually that one got repealed.
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A wise man said, "You can't step in the same stream twice," but I find wet feet soon get caked with sand and grit.  That's very unpleasant, especially between the toes.  So when I go for a stroll I stay on the sidewalk.
Dutch Rosie
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« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2018, 11:06:56 am »

This might be found interesting on the controversies  around the second amendment:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/oct/05/second-amendment-right-to-bear-arms-meaning-history
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Quelor
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« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2018, 11:52:49 am »

The 2nd Amendment isn't going to be repealed or modified, at least not in our lifetime.  Where you see change, and where we'll continue to see change, ironically enough considering the history of federalism, is at the State level.  Connecticut passed a whole host of gun control laws after Sandy Hook, and Florida just did the same.  I think Massachusetts, California, New Jersey, Connecticut and now Florida all essentially have gun control laws similar to what's found in Europe.  I expect that to continue, probably furthering the urban/rural divide in the country.

Of course, economics will be a factor.  Gun manufactures had a bonanza during the Obama years as the right wing conspiracies caused record sales (even though fewer households own guns than in decades passed.)  With that over with, gun sales have slumped drastically, even causing some bankruptcies, so it'll be interesting to see how that causes any affect to the NRAs power. 
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Dutch Rosie
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« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2018, 01:24:47 pm »

Perhaps the answer lies in the National School Walkout and the Washington protests. Youth are often at the forefront of great changes (the civil rights movement, the anti-Vietnam protests, gay rights/gay marriage, etc. Keep it up, kids.
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Quelor
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« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2018, 01:42:38 pm »

Perhaps the answer lies in the National School Walkout and the Washington protests. Youth are often at the forefront of great changes (the civil rights movement, the anti-Vietnam protests, gay rights/gay marriage, etc. Keep it up, kids.

The short answer, probably not.  The base that supports the 2nd Amendment believe the students to be pawns of the gun control advocates, so their minds aren't getting changed (not joking, I literally saw a post about this today in my Facebook feed.  That's how irrational they are).  The long answer is that it might, insofar as these students continue building a grass roots movement beyond today at the local and state level and affect change there first, which could than lead to national adoption of changes.
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Dutch Rosie
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« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2018, 02:11:45 pm »

The short answer, probably not.  The base that supports the 2nd Amendment believe the students to be pawns of the gun control advocates, so their minds aren't getting changed (not joking, I literally saw a post about this today in my Facebook feed.  That's how irrational they are).  The long answer is that it might, insofar as these students continue building a grass roots movement beyond today at the local and state level and affect change there first, which could than lead to national adoption of changes.

Yes, I was thinking of the long term answer. And though it seems doubtful that the youth will stay focused and build a grass roots movement, hopefully I will be proven to be just an old doubting Thomas.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 02:36:06 pm by Dutch Rosie » Logged
ymrader
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« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2018, 03:13:45 pm »

Doubting Thomas. Brilliant name....
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TGK
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« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2018, 06:12:30 pm »

Okay,

In the full knowledge that there is nothing more likely to get someone's back up than a guy from another country commenting on a country's way of life, but given that we're her to debate here goes...

This is my take, and I'm sure posters like Quelor (who I respect immensely, please don't make me look too retarded) will put me right on the historical innacuracies held within.

The experience of Oliver Cromwell in the U.K. loomed large over the early U.S. That a soldier could seize power by having an army was an anathema. It made sense at the time for an armed populace to be able to take up arms and resist this sort of power grab. In this day an age for an armed populace to take up arms and overthrow an elected government feels redundant....even now.

That being said, my brother lives in North Dakota and that's hunting country. It's weird for me, because hunting in the UK tends to be the preserve of the rich, but there it's a way of life. Regardless how you feel about it, they tend to eat what they shoot, and they enjoy it. Guns are something they have and use.

Personally speaking the right to bear arms, makes about as much sense as the right to arm bears, but I guess what I'm saying, is that maybe the second amendment should be re-framed (be that state by state or a tipping point of states). I've been in Scheels in Fargo where they were selling Uzis. Mental. There is no recreational use for an Uzi, unless you are being set upon by a swarm of squirrels who are the vanguard of a squirrel zombie apocolypse, but you can't tell good people who shoot 'recreationally' that they have to give up their rifles, or that they're being threatened by that ban, isn't going to fly. It just isn't, and if people want to start to get a grip on the 'wider problem' they're going to have to start in a far better place than 'all guns are bad'.

Because they aren't.

« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 07:24:57 pm by TGK » Logged
Quelor
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« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2018, 09:37:09 pm »



Of course, the 2nd Amendment flows from the English Bill of Rights, and the provision there about the right of Protestants to bear arms.  So, yeah, it's tied up into that era of history re: the English Civil War, Cromwell, the Restoration, and then the Glorious Revolution.  I don't think Cromwell himself was too much on the minds of the drafters of the US Bill of Rights, though, outside of as an example of tyranny and despotism.  Meaning, I don't think they worried more about an individual becoming a tyrant over a government.  Added to that is the understanding or belief that the US Bill of Rights are inalienable or natural rights that cannot be given or taken away.  I know that's not favorable in UK or Continental thought, before anyone quotes Bentham at me, but that was the prevailing philosophy at the time, and its remained so here, and so is the framework we have to work in.

I don't think there's a prevailing thought that "all guns are bad" on the gun control side insofar as some type of argument for a comprehensive ban or confiscation of all guns.  That's NRA dictated fear mongering about a slippery slope.  The current discussion is about "bump stocks" to facilitate and simulate automatic fire (which the shooter in Las Vegas used), the size of magazines, having back ground checks for sales online and at gun shows to match private retailers, raising the federal age to purchase a long rifle to 21 to match the requirement for hand-guns, and restricting against certain types of arms like Uzis, per your example.  Non of that really should be controversial, but it is because of the zero-sum game played by the NRA, who equate all of that as early steps to a ban and grab of all guns.  It all becomes a non-starter, which is why we get fucking crazy talk about arming teachers in schools, instead.


    
« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 09:41:16 pm by Quelor » Logged

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TGK
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« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2018, 09:54:42 pm »

Of course, the 2nd Amendment flows from the English Bill of Rights, and the provision there about the right of Protestants to bear arms.  So, yeah, it's tied up into that era of history re: the English Civil War, Cromwell, the Restoration, and then the Glorious Revolution.  I don't think Cromwell himself was too much on the minds of the drafters of the US Bill of Rights, though, outside of as an example of tyranny and despotism.  Meaning, I don't think they worried more about an individual becoming a tyrant over a government.  Added to that is the understanding or belief that the US Bill of Rights are inalienable or natural rights that cannot be given or taken away.  I know that's not favorable in UK or Continental thought, before anyone quotes Bentham at me, but that was the prevailing philosophy at the time, and its remained so here, and so is the framework we have to work in.

I don't think there's a prevailing thought that "all guns are bad" on the gun control side insofar as some type of argument for a comprehensive ban or confiscation of all guns.  That's NRA dictated fear mongering about a slippery slope.  The current discussion is about "bump stocks" to facilitate and simulate automatic fire (which the shooter in Las Vegas used), the size of magazines, having back ground checks for sales online and at gun shows to match private retailers, raising the federal age to purchase a long rifle to 21 to match the requirement for hand-guns, and restricting against certain types of arms like Uzis, per your example.  Non of that really should be controversial, but it is because of the zero-sum game played by the NRA, who equate all of that as early steps to a ban and grab of all guns.  It all becomes a non-starter, which is why we get fucking crazy talk about arming teachers in schools, instead.

    


This is one of those things that doesn't ever seem to be translated, because I would say it's definitely a European starting point, and it displays an ignorance of the culture/history of the US outside of the big cities, not that I'm claiming to be the cheerleader, just what I've experienced.

« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 10:00:18 pm by TGK » Logged
Quelor
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« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2018, 10:01:02 pm »

This is one of those things that doesn't ever seem to be translated, because I would say it's a definitely a European starting point, and it displays an ignorance of the culture/history of the US outside of the big cities, not that I'm claiming to be the cheerleader, just what I've experienced.



Gotcha.  I think there is an idea here that all guns are meant to kill, as an argument against the gun rights argument that guns are just tools, but I don't think that translates here to all guns bad.  No one here is trying to take away Joe or Jane Dakota's right to hunt or even self-defense by reasonable measures.  'Course, that "reasonable" is where all the devil in the details are.
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ymrader
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« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2018, 01:44:02 am »

This is one of those things that doesn't ever seem to be translated, because I would say it's definitely a European starting point, and it displays an ignorance of the culture/history of the US outside of the big cities, not that I'm claiming to be the cheerleader, just what I've experienced.



If it is a European starting point why do so many Germans have guns ?
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TGK
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« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2018, 05:59:19 am »

If it is a European starting point why do so many Germans have guns ?

History?

Ha ha ha ha ha.

Rosie is going to shit pink when she reads that.
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Dutch Rosie
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« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2018, 07:06:50 am »

History?

Ha ha ha ha ha.

Rosie is going to shit pink when she reads that.

Dream on, Cutie.
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Red Herring
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« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2018, 08:03:25 am »

There is no recreational use for an Uzi, unless you are being set upon by a swarm of squirrels who are the vanguard of a squirrel zombie apocolypse

That's not really a 'recreational' use though is it? That's a life or death situation.

Red
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ymrader
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« Reply #24 on: March 15, 2018, 09:37:51 am »

History?

Ha ha ha ha ha.

Rosie is going to shit pink when she reads that.

Germany and France are pretty tooled up, Switzerland definitely. I would think eastern Europeans are too.

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