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Author Topic: Dutch law on organ harvesting  (Read 581 times)
Dutch Rosie
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« on: February 13, 2018, 04:19:22 pm »

Today a new law was narrowly passed which makes dead bodies the property of the state to be used for organ transplants. Objectors now have to register to avoid inclusion. The families of the deceased are also allowed to withdraw permission.

Personally I am very much opposed to this ruling and discussed my reasons in an earlier thread which became rather abusive and aggressive. But there it is and we have to live with it. I registered as an objector, which my partner also did, whereas my daughter is a registered donor. Thousands of people who had already registered as donors have withdrawn their declarations in protest. An organ is a gift and should remain so.
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Dutch Rosie
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« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2018, 06:36:26 am »

24 hours later: 2,000 new donors and 30,000 refusals.
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ymrader
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« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2018, 12:31:15 pm »

It's an interesting topic, the 'sanctity of life vs rampant overpopulation...
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TGK
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« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2018, 04:59:15 am »

Not sure I really see the difference.

To use your own phrase "an organ is a gift".

Is there a huge difference between choosing to give, or choosing not to give?

Especially when the difference between the implicit and explicit could save lives?

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Dutch Rosie
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« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2018, 09:23:17 am »

The difference between what and what?

Not registering a choice used to be (for various reasons) a refusal to comply with the request to register, it was not an implicit "ÿes" to a donation.

That transplants can be done doesn't mean that they have to be done. Organ organisations seem to be determined that the government procure organs by fair means or foul, and have protested vigorously about the family's permission still being required under the new ruling.
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TGK
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« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2018, 12:32:05 pm »

I guess there are probably three types of people.

There are people who have previously registered to have their organs donated, and I have to say I applaud these people.

There are people who have expressed a wish not to have their organs donated, and whilst I don't necessarily understand the position, I absolutely respect their decision.

And then there are the people, and I include myself in this, who haven't stated a position, in my case largely due to laziness and a not hugely unreasonable notion that the organs that are holding my ruined carcass together probably aren't suitable. If the law is changed from an implicit no to an implicit yes, then I suspect this category of people will shrink, however if it's understood that by not opting out, you are stating that your organs can be donated then I don't see the issue.

The OP mentions 'harvesting', and I think it in itself is misleading and overly emotive. From what I understand about organ donation is that it's very specific. You can't just take most of the vital organs out of someone and keep them on ice until you need it, it has to be a specific need, so it's not as though every body gets 'harvested', it's just that if someone is awaiting a type of organ and it's a match then away we go.

It's not as though they are imposing mandatory organ donation.
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Dutch Rosie
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« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2018, 01:06:05 pm »

The issue is that many of us feel that we are being forced by government to make a recorded decision we do not want to make or to risk having our organs harvested as a consequence of not doing so.

A considerable number of potential donors have actually withdrawn their permission in protest at the new ruling.

In Europe there is always someone waiting for an organ and  there is a system in place for transferring organs internationally.
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ymrader
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« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2018, 02:33:02 pm »

I would love to know what they could actually do with mine  animated laugh
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TGK
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« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2018, 02:46:01 pm »

The issue is that many of us feel that we are being forced by government to make a recorded decision we do not want to make or to risk having our organs harvested as a consequence of not doing so.

A considerable number of potential donors have actually withdrawn their permission in protest at the new ruling.

In Europe there is always someone waiting for an organ and  there is a system in place for transferring organs internationally.

I agree, you are being forced to make a recorded decision, but if you feel that strongly about it you are free to make it.

Again, I don't really see the issue.
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Dutch Rosie
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« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2018, 03:27:16 pm »

the issue is indeed about freedom, and freedom is more than being blackmailed into choosing one of two choices.
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TGK
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« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2018, 03:49:13 pm »

So, playing devil's advocate.

As the law stood previously, were you not forced into actively giving consent?
« Last Edit: February 19, 2018, 04:14:48 am by TGK » Logged
Dutch Rosie
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« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2018, 01:30:21 am »

If you wanted to be a donor, then you had to register. If you didn't want to, then you needed to do nothing.
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TGK
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« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2018, 04:17:49 am »

If you wanted to be a donor, then you had to register. If you didn't want to, then you needed to do nothing.

So now it's the opposite, and if you feel strongly enough about it, you can make that choice and it will be respected.

Sorry Rosie, I guess at this point we'll have to agree to disagree but I genuinely don't see the issue giving that it will almost certainly save more lives.
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Dutch Rosie
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« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2018, 04:26:23 am »

The issue is about government invading our private lives. It may not be an issue for you, but it certainly is an issue for many Dutch citizens.

I read some years ago that Florida (or was it Texas?) had no shortage of organs after training doctors how to effectively  ask patients and their families to donate. This seems to me a good solution.
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TGK
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« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2018, 04:55:56 am »

Okay so I was going to let this go, but.......

"The issue is about government invading our private lives." Is it possible to interfere with someone's life when they aren't actually alive? It feels almost oxymoronic.

"I read some years ago that Florida (or was it Texas?) had no shortage of organs after training doctors how to effectively  ask patients and their families to donate." This would appear to suggest that most people, or certainly an increased number would agree to organ donation when armed with all the facts, so why not put those facts out there beforehand and if people still object they can opt out. This seems like a good solution to me.
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Dutch Rosie
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« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2018, 04:56:50 am »

I would love to know what they could actually do with mine  animated laugh

I'm sure you would be useful, YM, even if it's just your skin or cornea.  Shocked
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Dutch Rosie
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« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2018, 05:01:18 am »

Okay so I was going to let this go, but.......

"The issue is about government invading our private lives." Is it possible to interfere with someone's life when they aren't actually alive? It feels almost oxymoronic.

"I read some years ago that Florida (or was it Texas?) had no shortage of organs after training doctors how to effectively  ask patients and their families to donate." This would appear to suggest that most people, or certainly an increased number would agree to organ donation when armed with all the facts, so why not put those facts out there beforehand and if people still object they can opt out. This seems like a good solution to me.

The forcing of a decision by government is an intrusion into our lives. Many people don't even want to make a will, let alone decide on donation. Several members of my own family died intestate because they did not want to consider making a will. Perhaps they should have been forced by government...
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TGK
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« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2018, 05:07:20 am »

I'm not discussing dead family members with you, all I'll say is I'm sorry for your loss.
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Dutch Rosie
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« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2018, 05:44:15 am »

Sigh...I was not asking you to discuss dead family members, but to realise that people have different sensibilities and should not be forced to submit to such legal demands if they really don't want to.
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TGK
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« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2018, 05:48:47 am »

Fair enough Rosie, I just didn't want to discuss family members, it would get a bit personal.

Like I say, think we just plain old disagree on this one.
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Dutch Rosie
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« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2018, 05:54:05 am »

Yeah, it's now a fact we will have to learn to live with. The law will become active in 2020.
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What Larks
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« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2018, 07:17:19 am »

This is a difficult one, and when I have read about it in the past the issues turned out to be more complicated than I at first imagined.  One of the problems is when family members are involved in having to make a quick decision at a time when they are in distress.  It means agreeing to keeping your loved one alive artificially until the organ can be taken, which prologues the agony,  Does it make any difference whether you are asked for consent or offered the chance to object, as seems to be case in Holland? 
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Dutch Rosie
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« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2018, 08:10:32 am »

WL, I have no idea whether it makes any difference. My daughter persuaded all her friends to follow her example and register as donors. Just a few weeks later,  one of these friends had an accident (was thrown by a horse and then the horse fell on top of her). The doctors told her parents she was brain dead and carried out a number of removals of organs. I think on the whole that they were so devastated by the whole affair of the accident and her injuries that they didn't react much to the removal of organs.

Perhaps I should explain that the family permission clause in the new law only applies to those people who did not register at all and consequently were registered by government  as having "no objections" which means that they will leave the decision to family members or another appointed person.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 09:03:02 am by Dutch Rosie » Logged
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