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Question: Does It Have A Place In 21st Century London?  (Voting closes: November 22, 2017, 03:42:04 pm)
Yes
No,it should be toppled

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Author Topic: Does Nelsons Column Have A Place In 21st Century London?  (Read 652 times)
ymrader
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« Reply #25 on: August 26, 2017, 02:35:56 pm »

And therefore part of Germany's history. 

Not many swastikas round here..
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everso
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MR. PHILLIPS


« Reply #26 on: August 26, 2017, 03:14:10 pm »

Not many swastikas round here..

It's against the law, isn't it?
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Riotgrrl
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« Reply #27 on: August 28, 2017, 07:36:47 am »

I find the whole practice of putting up statues to people nauseating, a rational society should have no truck with personality cults.

We mock North Korea for the cult of Kim, yet we carry portraits of the queen in our pockets, and put a picture of a war criminal on our £5 notes.

Red

I agree with you here Red. 

Glasgow's full of statues of dead white men (which, admittedly, is the best kind of white men  Wink) and nobody's that sure who they are or why they matter. 

But once they're up, I suppose they're up and there has to be a good reason to replace them. 

The difference is with the USA and their General Lee statues, is that those statues were mass-produced and deliberately put up as a sign of white supremacy, according to something I read on the internet.
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Riotgrrl
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« Reply #28 on: August 28, 2017, 07:37:44 am »

Hi Ev,

Do you think it was wrong of them to remove the inscription that blamed the Catholics for the Fire of London?

Red

 . . was it the Catholics?  I wouldn't put it past that mob.
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everso
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« Reply #29 on: August 28, 2017, 08:04:52 am »

Hi Ev,

Do you think it was wrong of them to remove the inscription that blamed the Catholics for the Fire of London?

Red

Depends when it was removed.  If it was removed within the lifetime of the people who put it up, then I guess it would make them look less daft it it had been removed, so can possibly understand their motives.  Any later and 'history' is being altered, IMO.

I understand your viewpoint that putting up statues is a waste of time, but how uninteresting it would be if all statues were destroyed.
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everso
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« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2017, 08:07:43 am »

. . was it the Catholics?  I wouldn't put it past that mob.

Robert Catesby, the ring leader, certainly was.  James I (6 to you) wasn't keen on them, which is why some of them wanted him dead.

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Red Herring
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« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2017, 02:41:24 pm »

Depends when it was removed.  If it was removed within the lifetime of the people who put it up, then I guess it would make them look less daft it it had been removed, so can possibly understand their motives.  Any later and 'history' is being altered, IMO.

The inscription was carved in 1661 and deleted in 1830 with Catholic Emancipation, so no it wasn't removed within the lifetime of anyone that endorsed it. Presumably out of a sense that having one of London's great Monument covered with hate speech was not conducive to making a much persecuted minority feel welcome. I can see the reasoning, but no doubt if the Daily Mail were about at the time, it would be squealing about how we should preserve our great history of persecuting Catholics ;-)

Quote
I understand your viewpoint that putting up statues is a waste of time, but how uninteresting it would be if all statues were destroyed.

Not if they were replaced with something interesting. I don't find statues ridiculous per se, just the ones that are of supposedly distinguished politicians and generals, who more often than not turn out to be either war criminals, terrorists or both.

Red

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everso
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« Reply #32 on: August 29, 2017, 03:34:31 pm »

The inscription was carved in 1661 and deleted in 1830 with Catholic Emancipation, so no it wasn't removed within the lifetime of anyone that endorsed it. Presumably out of a sense that having one of London's great Monument covered with hate speech was not conducive to making a much persecuted minority feel welcome.

I think there's a difference between a statue and the written word, and, considering that, I can see the reasoning behind the removal of those words.  Do you think the Monument should have been taken down altogether?  After all, it was erected when there was anti Catholic feeling.

Quote
Not if they were replaced with something interesting. I don't find statues ridiculous per se, just the ones that are of supposedly distinguished politicians and generals, who more often than not turn out to be either war criminals, terrorists or both.

But no matter whose statue is put up, there will always be someone who dislikes or disagrees with what that person stood for.   Incidentally, I've no problem with statues being pulled down that were erected during the person's lifetime - I.e Saddam Hussain.  Smiley

Another point, something that was mentioned in Any Questions on Friday, should The Pyramids be dismantled, since the were erected by slaves?  Whether those slaves lived two hundred years ago or four thousand years ago, they were still human beings.


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mikado
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« Reply #33 on: August 30, 2017, 01:11:39 pm »

Robert Catesby, the ring leader, certainly was.  James I (6 to you) wasn't keen on them, which is why some of them wanted him dead.



Catesby was the Gunpowder Plot ringleader.  I don't think there were any Catesbies involved in the Great Fire.

However according to Wikipedia:

Quote
An example of the urge to identify scapegoats for the fire is the acceptance of the confession of a simple-minded French watchmaker named Robert Hubert, who claimed that he was an agent of the Pope and had started the Great Fire in Westminster. He later changed his story to say that he had started the fire at the bakery in Pudding Lane. Hubert was convicted, despite some misgivings about his fitness to plead, and hanged at Tyburn on 28 September 1666. After his death, it became apparent that he had been on board a ship in the North Sea, and had not arrived in London until two days after the fire started.
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mikado
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« Reply #34 on: August 30, 2017, 01:28:28 pm »

I find the whole practice of putting up statues to people nauseating, a rational society should have no truck with personality cults.

We mock North Korea for the cult of Kim, yet we carry portraits of the queen in our pockets, and put a picture of a war criminal on our £5 notes.

Because putting the Queen's picture on a banknote is indistinguishable from the North Korean cult of Kim.
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mikado
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« Reply #35 on: August 30, 2017, 01:33:56 pm »

Interestingly, it wouldn't be the first time a major London monument has been defaced in the interests of political correctness, Monument itself was amended 150 years after its construction:

The Latin words "Sed Furor Papisticus Qui Tamdiu Patravit Nondum Restingvitur" (but Popish frenzy, which wrought such horrors, is not yet quenched) were added to the end of the inscription on the orders of the Court of Aldermen in 1681 during the foment of the Popish Plot.[2] Text on the east side originally falsely blamed Roman Catholics for the fire ("burning of this protestant city, begun and carried on by the treachery and malice of the popish faction"), which prompted Alexander Pope (himself a Catholic) to say of the area:

Where London's column, pointing at the skies,
 Like a tall bully, lifts the head, and lies.
– Moral Essays, Epistle iii. line 339 (1733–1734).

The words blaming Catholics were chiselled out with Catholic Emancipation in 1830.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monument_to_the_Great_Fire_of_London

You realise this, of course, but there are some eency weency differences between removing a statue of Nelson and removing anti-Catholic text on the Monument.
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Red Herring
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« Reply #36 on: August 30, 2017, 04:01:10 pm »

You realise this, of course, but there are some eency weency differences between removing a statue of Nelson and removing anti-Catholic text on the Monument.

Of course there are differences, but I was commenting on the similarities.

Red
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mikado
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« Reply #37 on: August 31, 2017, 04:50:44 am »

Of course there are differences, but I was commenting on the similarities.

I could comment on the similarities between yourself and Mother Theresa, but it wouldn't necessarily advance the debate.

If I understand right, the anti-Catholic text on the Monument was a piece of bigoted political propaganda, and there is no factual evidence that Catholics were responsible for the Great Fire.  Removing it was basic decency, and there's no good reason why it should have been permitted to remain in place other than perhaps as an educational piece on the dangers of bigotry.  Nelson's statue is there in Trafalgar Square as he was a war hero who was instrumental in protecting Britain from invasion.  There is an argument that can be had as to whether other characteristics of the man make him unsuitable to be commemorated like this, but it's nothing like as clear-cut at the Monument text.

So in my view, the fact that there are some similarities between the Nelson statue and the Monument text does not in any way help advance the discussion about whether or not Nelson's statue should be removed.
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Red Herring
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« Reply #38 on: August 31, 2017, 07:50:07 am »

I could comment on the similarities between yourself and Mother Theresa, but it wouldn't necessarily advance the debate.

If I understand right, the anti-Catholic text on the Monument was a piece of bigoted political propaganda, and there is no factual evidence that Catholics were responsible for the Great Fire.  Removing it was basic decency, and there's no good reason why it should have been permitted to remain in place other than perhaps as an educational piece on the dangers of bigotry.  Nelson's statue is there in Trafalgar Square as he was a war hero who was instrumental in protecting Britain from invasion.  There is an argument that can be had as to whether other characteristics of the man make him unsuitable to be commemorated like this, but it's nothing like as clear-cut at the Monument text.

So in my view, the fact that there are some similarities between the Nelson statue and the Monument text does not in any way help advance the discussion about whether or not Nelson's statue should be removed.

Hi Mik,

The comparison has already advanced the debate considerably by motivating you to explain the ways in which the two are different.

Personally, I find the statue to be just another dull example of nationalistic jingoism, and as such wouldn't mind at all if it was taken down (I'd like to see the column remain though), but I'm not dieing in a ditch about it, and it seems nobody else is either as this article is the first time I've seen the case made. I think the article makes some legitimate points though - in the comparisons it draws with the war heroes of the southern states. Also, if there was a significant population in the UK who were genuinely offended by it, there could also be good reasons to take him down.

But as things stand, I think he's safe. Unless it emerges that he abused his celebrity to molest children, I can't see his monument going the same way as Jimmy Saville's grave.

Red
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Red Herring
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« Reply #39 on: August 31, 2017, 08:19:29 am »

I think there's a difference between a statue and the written word, and, considering that, I can see the reasoning behind the removal of those words.  Do you think the Monument should have been taken down altogether?  After all, it was erected when there was anti Catholic feeling.

I'm not even sure the inscription should have been removed, but the Monument should certainly have stayed, and I am glad it did. It's a hundred times better than Nelson' s Column. You can climb to the top, and it has a ball of fire on it instead of yet another dead dude.

Quote
But no matter whose statue is put up, there will always be someone who dislikes or disagrees with what that person stood for.   Incidentally, I've no problem with statues being pulled down that were erected during the person's lifetime - I.e Saddam Hussain.  Smiley

No problem with  pulling down Saddam either. In fact he's a good comparison. Like Nelson at one time he was seen as a national hero that saved his nation from invasion by Iran, but that didn't stop him from being pulled down. Interestingly, I believe the huge crossed swords also commemorating the Iran/Iraq war still stand, and are much loved.

Quote
Another point, something that was mentioned in Any Questions on Friday, should The Pyramids be dismantled, since the were erected by slaves?  Whether those slaves lived two hundred years ago or four thousand years ago, they were still human beings.

Actually, I think a very strong case could be made for demolishing the pyramids, when you think about them and what they represent, they're monstrous. We should be treating them like Auschwitz, i.e. not a tourist attraction, but a salutary reminder of the atrocities we are capable of.

Edit: Of course, I should add, it's not up to us whether or not the pyramids are dismantled. The mere suggestion that we could decide is typical of the obnoxious colonial mind set epitomized by monuments like Nelson's column  Cool

Red
« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 08:40:41 am by Red Herring » Logged
everso
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« Reply #40 on: August 31, 2017, 03:23:17 pm »

Catesby was the Gunpowder Plot ringleader.  I don't think there were any Catesbies involved in the Great Fire.


Oh crap!  I got a bit muddled there.  The Gunpowder plot was James I and the Great Fire was Charles II  Roll Eyes

The Catholics were out of favour for a fair few years. 
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mikado
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« Reply #41 on: September 05, 2017, 01:53:20 pm »

Wasting time on youtube and came across this:

https://youtu.be/sOW1gMGmNSY?t=2677

 Grin
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Weyland
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Thank you, Rafa!


« Reply #42 on: September 06, 2017, 04:11:34 am »

Pull the white supremacist statue down,the right thing to do Cool

But enough about Mogg.
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Snotty
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« Reply #43 on: September 06, 2017, 04:28:31 am »

But enough about Mogg.

 animated laugh
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everso
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MR. PHILLIPS


« Reply #44 on: September 06, 2017, 07:33:42 am »

 Angry

I like his top hat.  Reminds me of Fred Astaire.
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Snotty
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« Reply #45 on: September 09, 2017, 09:08:38 am »

Tear down this as well Smiley

Will Australia do it though?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-41020363
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Weyland
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Thank you, Rafa!


« Reply #46 on: September 09, 2017, 09:27:50 am »

Tear down this as well Smiley

Will Australia do it though?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-41020363

If any European "discovered" Australia -- and New Zealand -- it certainly wasn't Captain Cook. It was Abel Janszoon Tasman, more than a century earlier.

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"Theresa May’s determination to pursue hard Brexit = stepping off a 10m diving board without checking there is any water in the pool."
First-Time-Ever Department: The UK is negotiating with the rest of the EU in order to secure a worse trade deal than we already have.
Snotty
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« Reply #47 on: September 09, 2017, 09:29:44 am »

If any European "discovered" Australia -- and New Zealand -- it certainly wasn't Captain Cook. It was Abel Janszoon Tasman, more than a century earlier.



So do you think the owld twat should be torn down?
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Weyland
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Thank you, Rafa!


« Reply #48 on: September 09, 2017, 09:34:44 am »

So do you think the owld twat should be torn down?

No, but they need to change the information plaque, if any, to include the indigenous people and, of course, Tasman.
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mikado
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« Reply #49 on: September 09, 2017, 11:39:01 am »

If any European "discovered" Australia -- and New Zealand -- it certainly wasn't Captain Cook. It was Abel Janszoon Tasman, more than a century earlier.



Ah well, Tasman got an island named after him, whereas all Cook got was a lousy statue Smiley
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